We constantly get criticized for our less than modern look. I feel as though most users could let some of the other inefficiencies and issues go if our theme at least looked good. And aesthetically, accessibility, and statistically the type of theme that is going to appeal to the most users is not going to be a dark theme. We can still have the dark theme as an option, but we shouldn't ship it as default, and this include's raster's updated theme flat which is basically just a flattened version of dark. Look around and literalliy no one ships with a dark theme. Windows, Mac OS, Android, Chrome, I OS, Gnome, KDE, XFCE, etc..., etc..., etc... there is a reason. The out of the box experience should cover the largest base of users possible. A dark theme is not going to accomplish that. A dark theme is a niche. Cedric has addressed this already with the website and it also applies to our default theme. Both need to be redone and really there should be an emphasis on this theming over development at this point because it is the appearance that is costing us users not functionality. I see it every day in online forums, chats, irc, blogs about E, etc..., etc..., etc... We REALLY need to prioritize this and theme, and do it the right way. Google material design has been suggested by many as what we should do. I'm not sure. Cedric's push to work on our appearance was not met well or accepted among our developers, but simply this has to change. It is killing us. I've attached an IRC discussion in #edevelop from several developers about this theming. I wanted to put it here on Phab and allow us to all have a discussion to work this out. This really is a serious issue and I hope this is addressed and not just blown off for personal preferences or lack of passion about doing a theme. Seriously do some research and contribute this discussion unbiasedly.
<okra> we really should say to hell with the dark theme, to hell with the dark website, etc..., etc... cedric brought this up once more and seeing more reactions of people using E like the one in #e right now... it isn't a coincidence. The website, application themes, wm themes don't need to be so nuanced with styling, and odd color combinations of dark and blue.
<okra> as cedric said, he was referring to the website but it refers to the default theme the website matches as well. It's bad. cedric suggested going with something google material design related... which now seems to be a focus of ajwillia_ms new work as well. Really the out of the box or initial impression of our stuff shouldn't be the dark theme that our website and toolkit and desktop use.
<okra> that doesn't mean we can't still have the dark theme and others... but the dark theme is a niche. Statistically it won't be a favorite. Our defaults should follow statistics of what a majority would find aesthetically pleasing and not a minority. Again cedric provided a lot of these numbers.
<vivia> okra: to be honest many people seem to be extremely fond of dark themes, and it seems to have a higher correlation with developers than the general public. it's kind of niche
<vivia> oh, gmta :)
<okra> vivia, :)
<okra> and I get @raster is working on a new theme... but its just a flat version of what we already have
<okra> it isn't improving anything in that department.
<vivia> what was the reaction in #e btw? I did join but it was already gone
<okra> as you said though vivia among the developers its the opposite... to hell with the statistics and a design that covers the statistic majority we refuse to move from our niche design and look/feel
<okra> vivia, just more people saying E looks old/1990s/theme is bad/lack of themes
<vivia> hehe, i see
<okra> I cringe everytime I visit e.org or see elm apps, even ephoto that I wrote. dark text on light backgrounds statistically will please the widest range of users aesthetically.
<brokenshakles_> okra, but I like dark and blue
<vivia> higher contrasts are better for accessibility
<brokenshakles_> but I've always wondered why we dont have a selection of themes instead of just a single degault
<vivia> I'm not sure there aren't color-blindness types who would have trouble telling apart blue from dark gray
<okra> brokenshakles_, because a long time ago in our initial design of libraries and how things work we made it too difficult to create themes
<brokenshakles_> okra, is that being redesigned as part of this?
<okra> vivia, it's a problem. Simotek has been trying to get e.org to websafe colors methinks but to me it just shouldn't be gray on gray text/background at all.
<okra> brokenshakles_, no
<brokenshakles_> okra, and dark text on light backgrounds kills the eyes if you stare at it for long periods, so we will still need a dark theme for devs.
<brokenshakles_> so there is a builtin population that will want the current theme, but the real solution is choice, I'm afraid.
<brokenshakles_> that and lightening up the text gray for the current theme, the fact that text contrast to the background is too low is a very valid complaint.
<okra> brokenshakles_, rather quite the opposite
<okra> brokenshakles_, most studies have found reading dark text on light backgrounds is better for the eyes
<vivia> billiob: there?
<brokenshakles_> Then why do I always get a headache when I try it?
<okra> brokenshakles_, this is why you even see that trend in e readers for people who stare and read books rather than light text on dark background
<vivia> anyway, billiob had shown me some "solarised" theme
<vivia> which is the same contrast as reading a book in the shadow... not too high contrast, but dark on white
<vivia> and someone said that this felt like the easiest for the eyes
<okra> vivia, would love to see this
<vivia> actually it's the first result on ddg
<vivia> for the lazy, does redshift work on e? :)
<brokenshakles_> vivia, those accent colors look horrible on my screen
<brokenshakles_> but the general concept is good
<vivia> brokenshakles_: I tried temporarily disabling redshift to see how it's supposed to look like and I went "OUCH MY EYES"
<vivia> (yes I do have it set to quite an aggressive color temperature / brightness)
<TAsn> vivia, probably yes (in X), but not in Wayland.
<vivia> TAsn: ahh, so it should operate on that level. then yeah
<TAsn> (redshift is X only, in Wayland, the compositor needs to implement it)
<brokenshakles_> vivia, looks like the designer cared more about the color value relationships and less about if the primary accent colors where actually the colors described.
<vivia> :), I can't judge for myself right now, but the concept is what I remembered as very interesting
<billiob> vivia: back :)
<vivia> b :)
<ajwillia_ms> vivia: netstar added solarised theme to edi :)
<vivia> hi :)
<okra> I think users could let a lot of the other inefficiencies go if things at least looked good... but we seem so stuck on this gray/black/blue theme ... and it is never going to look good.
<netstar> I kind of agree
<netstar> I STILL love bling theme
<okra> netstar, it was at least dark text on a light bg
<ajwillia_ms> Bling was cool - but a little too animated
<okra> I seriously can't think of any desktops that ship out of the box with a dark theme.
<okra> other than E.
<netstar> I've tried flat but I'm not convinced by the contrast
<ajwillia_ms> okra: I think “we like it that way”
<okra> not windows, not mac, not gnome, not kde, not chrome, not android
<ajwillia_ms> okra: and not Fyne ;)
<vivia> android used to but switched away from it
<okra> ajwillia_ms, "we" very well may but statistically the majority of our users won't.
<netstar> Theming def needs to be addressed.
<okra> and by theming needs to be addressed I don't mean taking the same colors, same scheme, etc... and just making it flat like raster's theme is doing
<netstar> Is some sort of transitional layer possible to convery normal thoughts into edc?
<netstar> Yeh it's not seen any love for ages
<netstar> the built-in theme was quite promising
<okra> or enventor
<okra> I'm taking this chat and sticking it in a phab ticket and sending a mail to the list
<okra> I'm sure that this will get rejected but it must be said.
<netstar> TBH I really like a redmond theme
<vivia> okra: i think the biggest argument is accessibility, then statistics
<vivia> the rest just comes down to personal preferences